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Disclaimer: I may have made a mistake in SC1 or WC3 mechanics I am no pro.

I am worried that SC2 will be too easy and therefore not attract the competitive scene as much as SC1 did. I know blizzard wants to make SC2 easy to pick up for new players but difficult to Master but I'm not sure its going to happen. SC1 is still popular because of its balance even though the 3 races are very different. It is also very popular because it has a very high upper limit to skill level meaning you can practice years and still not be as good as you possibly could be. It worries me that SC2 wont have as high of an upper limit to skill level for a number of reasons. Here are reasons why SC2 will be too easy to master as compared to SC1.

Reasons it will be too easy:
1. Up to 255 unit selection

SC1 had a 12 unit limit and so did Warcraft 3. In SC1 if you had more than 12 units you were expected to make control groups to use your units effectively. With a 255 unit limit you can much more easily move your units out of harms way. Basically you have to spend less time working on moving your units to where they need to be.

2. Being Able to Select Multiple Buildings

SC1 you could not do this. In SC2 you can use 1 hotkey for all your unit producing structures and tab through to your barracks, factory, etc. to save you time in producing a large number of units.

3. Health Bars

In SC1 you could only see the health bar of your own units if they were in your 12 unit control group or if your mouse is scrolling over them. In SC2 you have the option of activating health bars all the time, when holding the alt-button or only when selecting units (like SC1). This allows easier micro especially in large battles saving you time.

4. Smart Casting

Smart Casting in SC2 allows you to select a large number of casters and use each of their spells accurately much easier. In SC1 you would have to select each caster and individually tell them to cast each spell, now you can save at least half of the clicks you used to need to cast all those spells.

5. Rally point to Mine Minerals

Part of perfecting your game in Starcraft is making sure your workers are not inactive. In Sc1 you could not set a rally point for workers to mine minerals, but in SC2 you can. This means you can save lots of time going back and telling your workers to mine.

6. Better Unit Pathing

Since SC2 unit pathing is better than SC1 pathing, you dont have to worry about telling your lings to run past the enemy and THEN attack except if you are attempting to surround running target. Basically lings realize they are attacking and will surround much better than they used to. So the lazy attack-move command will be more effective and possibly the MOST effective way to attack with melee units (ignoring focus firing).

7. Hold fire button cloaked units.

SC1 required you to select a lurker and an overlord at the same time and press the hold position button in order to simulate the hold fire command. Im not sure if other cloaked units in SC1 had the ability to hold fire. In SC2 there is a hold fire command for cloaked units including the lurkers. I realize the ability to hold fire was just a "glitch" found long after the game came out but it is part of current competitive play.

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In conclusion, since SC2 has so many time savers will always have things to improve like you did in a SC1 game? Will SC2 have the upper limit of skill equal to SC1? Will it be easy to play a "perfect" game or will SC2 have a challenge that will keep you constantly trying to improve?

Disclaimer: I may have made a mistake in SC1 or WC3 mechanics I am no pro.

I too fall into the "not a pro" pocket of gamers when it comes to SCBW and WC3. However, i don't think the new features blizzard is adding will make it "easy". Most of them are found in WC3 and while Wc3 doesn't require the same kind of super human APM as SC, it is by no means an easy game. As such, the difference in skill level between a gamer like Grubby or Moon is quite noticeable when compared to say...me. =P

By adding some of these features, Blizzard is cutting down on things that, while challenging, aren't necessarily fun. Such as individually clicking on 8 or so factories, gates, what have you. While I love SC to death, getting better can sometimes consist of working through some of the shortcomings of the game (imo).

As for the 255 unit control cap, I could see this making the game more "beginner friendly" but again I don't believe it will break the game or make it lose appeal. Being able to move a large force around will be convenient but when the **** goes down, tight micro will have to be used and this feature might have less of an impact. (stacking tons of mutas could be a problem but we'll see)

@TheGreenMachi
I agree with you.
I think SC2 is more macro game now then micro. I personally enjoy micro more. I rather play with small army then a huge army. But SC2 will still be very competitive and Im think it will be even more competitive cause of the speed of the game. What I can say for sure is that we need first to try SC2 and then make judgments ^^

Though i disagree this is an excellent and well thought out post.

I believe you won't have to worry, as these new mechanics will mean it is only easier to go from 'noob' to mid level player.

It won't touch or hinder the mentality of a pro.

I don't think you have to worry about SC2 being too easy.

I like blizz game philisophy. A game should be easy to pick up and play and yet hard to master.

In SC1 there is too much focus on clicking. The clicking makes a lot of the attention go from the strategy and tactics for n00bs like me.

SC2 will make n00bs like me be able to focus more on strategy. This hardly means that I now have the chance to compete with the pros.

It's not like the apm/fast thinking is being replaced by the UI doing thinking for you. But at least now we, the n0bbs, can practice lot more strategy and tactics instead of our fast clicking skills.

There are many truths in this post, but however in pro gaming even the slightest mistake can win/lose a match. So, no matter how mechanics work, there will always be room for improvement, at least in microing. Computer guided units can't be smarter than humans, there will always be some tricks and finesses which can determine a winner.

Btw:

Quote by TheGreenMachine

5. Rally point to Mine Minerals

Part of perfecting your game in Starcraft is making sure your workers are not inactive. In Sc1 you could not set a rally point for workers to mine minerals, but in SC2 you can. This means you can save lots of time going back and telling your workers to mine.

This imo annoying sc1 feature is now replaced with one less annoying and much more inventive feature (Mule, Proton Charge and Queen's extra larvae spawn mechanics).

no hold fire for lurkers?



this sucks.


lurkers suprise to group of marines is my favourite trick.

What is kinda funny is that the seven reasons you picked are all new mechanics(well obviously) blizzard have been working on for a long time... Maybe you just would have preferred if blizzard didn't spend so much time on perfecting the game^^
And what's more, you can't just start criticising when the game is not even in beta tests...MAYBE it will still be the over challenging game it use to be, in just a little easier to begin with, and, surely, it'll be a lot easier to begin with, but thing is sure: good players will still be good players, because one thing is more important than apm: intelligence!
You don't have to click more if you click well, and it's gonna be even more true in SC II
Well all of this is my opinion, you may not like it, but it's what i think

@ jumok: "In SC2 there is a hold fire command for cloaked units including the lurkers"
So there IS a hold fire command to trick marines and other careless units

I think it will depend on the difficulty setting...?

Quote by Van Kessel

What is kinda funny is that the seven reasons you picked are all new mechanics(well obviously) blizzard have been working on for a long time... Maybe you just would have preferred if blizzard didn't spend so much time on perfecting the game^^
And what's more, you can't just start criticising when the game is not even in beta tests...MAYBE it will still be the over challenging game it use to be, in just a little easier to begin with, and, surely, it'll be a lot easier to begin with, but thing is sure: good players will still be good players, because one thing is more important than apm: intelligence!
You don't have to click more if you click well, and it's gonna be even more true in SC II
Well all of this is my opinion, you may not like it, but it's what i think

@ jumok: "In SC2 there is a hold fire command for cloaked units including the lurkers"
So there IS a hold fire command to trick marines and other careless units

Um... I thought he brought up good points. Don't judge his thoughts like that. Hes just simply pointing out a few good ones.

@ This Thread :

The only thing I dislike about this whole SCII feature is the limitless unit grouping. Same with buildings... however, I would like a couple. one key can hold 2-3 gates max? That would be better. The hotkeys 1-0 will serve diff things now. Scouter, Main nexus, etc.


@Xxio, did you even read the post? Lol It isn't computer hes talkin about but the APM being decreased and such.

I read half of it, thought he was talking about the campaign, my bad.

This is something that has been touched on by Artosis and others. Artosis said that someone would never need more than 100 apm because there wouldn't be enough to do (he played the game already), and automated things like SCVs auto mining bring down the skill level.
Day[9] (or maybe it was Tasteless) said he understands why SCII has lowered the apm but that they should have a feature of SCII for professionals in which things aren't automated.

However, apparently the speed levels of the game are much higher. I remember someone said that 'normal' speed is just a little slower than BW's 'fastest' and that there are 2 higher speed levels after 'normal' in SCII.

SC2 speed is insane but Im sure it will be fun ^^

OK - step by step here we go now..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

Disclaimer: I may have made a mistake in SC1 or WC3 mechanics I am no pro.

I am worried that SC2 will be too easy and therefore not attract the competitive scene as much as SC1 did. I know blizzard wants to make SC2 easy to pick up for new players but difficult to Master but I'm not sure its going to happen. SC1 is still popular because of its balance even though the 3 races are very different. It is also very popular because it has a very high upper limit to skill level meaning you can practice years and still not be as good as you possibly could be. It worries me that SC2 wont have as high of an upper limit to skill level for a number of reasons. Here are reasons why SC2 will be too easy to master as compared to SC1.

Easy to learn, hard to master: Roach Burrow, Blink, Charge your own units when retreating for a successful retreat.. Reaper micro and abusing the terrain's high ground..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

Reasons it will be too easy:
1. Up to 255 unit selection

SC1 had a 12 unit limit and so did Warcraft 3. In SC1 if you had more than 12 units you were expected to make control groups to use your units effectively. With a 255 unit limit you can much more easily move your units out of harms way. Basically you have to spend less time working on moving your units to where they need to be.

It doesn't have to mean that way.. I'm personally worried about this same thing.. the more units you select in a single hotkey - the less control over those units you'll have - e.g. Limbo-Lines will be much more common if more units are controlled by a same hotkey.. Especially bad when controlling Banelings and units of that kind of type this is..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

2. Being Able to Select Multiple Buildings

SC1 you could not do this. In SC2 you can use 1 hotkey for all your unit producing structures and tab through to your barracks, factory, etc. to save you time in producing a large number of units.

Agreed - well basically the lower-posted points than this one I agree with.. However - this is the reason why there shouldn't be as large number of simultaneous unit selection as the 255.. 32 would do just fine so if you HKey 4 groups of units there are still 6 for some Casters and Production Buildings and so and so..

And why are you against this one..??//If you aren't then you should be..:))//

From this feature the greatest actual benefit gets the Terran.. You're a Terran player no..??

Quote by TheGreenMachine

3. Health Bars

In SC1 you could only see the health bar of your own units if they were in your 12 unit control group or if your mouse is scrolling over them. In SC2 you have the option of activating health bars all the time, when holding the alt-button or only when selecting units (like SC1). This allows easier micro especially in large battles saving you time.

I don't quite think so that this one is.. However - sometimes choosing the unit with lowest current HP may be a flaw as you lose the normal dealing damage rate as the units would stop firing to "aim your unit" and fire and when it's dead and then stop and "aim" before start shooting again. And you can overfire not necessary shots at a unit that's almost nearly dead and by that time your enemy will enjoy the benefits of your mismicro..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

4. Smart Casting

Smart Casting in SC2 allows you to select a large number of casters and use each of their spells accurately much easier. In SC1 you would have to select each caster and individually tell them to cast each spell, now you can save at least half of the clicks you used to need to cast all those spells.

This is actually the biggest relief IMO, but probably spells aren't as strong as were in BW now..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

5. Rally point to Mine Minerals

Part of perfecting your game in Starcraft is making sure your workers are not inactive. In Sc1 you could not set a rally point for workers to mine minerals, but in SC2 you can. This means you can save lots of time going back and telling your workers to mine.

Oh - I'll love this one.. )

However - maybe you won't need to select Workers to mine patches around, but I'm sure you'll need that with M.U.L.E.s.. And my god I'll need to sink some APM on making more Drones with the Queens..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

6. Better Unit Pathing

Since SC2 unit pathing is better than SC1 pathing, you dont have to worry about telling your lings to run past the enemy and THEN attack except if you are attempting to surround running target. Basically lings realize they are attacking and will surround much better than they used to. So the lazy attack-move command will be more effective and possibly the MOST effective way to attack with melee units (ignoring focus firing).

I sure hope so.., However - Rines got 60HP now and other ranged units got a HP buff in majority of the cases..

Quote by TheGreenMachine

7. Hold fire button cloaked units.

SC1 required you to select a lurker and an overlord at the same time and press the hold position button in order to simulate the hold fire command. Im not sure if other cloaked units in SC1 had the ability to hold fire. In SC2 there is a hold fire command for cloaked units including the lurkers. I realize the ability to hold fire was just a "glitch" found long after the game came out but it is part of current competitive play.

Too bad Lurks don't have this.. It's too rasistic.. :S

Quote by TheGreenMachine

8. (Submit ideas)

In conclusion, since SC2 has so many time savers will always have things to improve like you did in a SC1 game? Will SC2 have the upper limit of skill equal to SC1? Will it be easy to play a "perfect" game or will SC2 have a challenge that will keep you constantly trying to improve?

Not really - you've seen BR3 and 4 right..?? That's the BRs where basically the Players did a rather really fast gameplay as opposed to BRs 1 and 2.. Overall the game speed is increased as now "Normal" matches the Fastest from BW.. Trust me - It's gonna be a hell of a fast APM needy game again although of all those reliefs now..

Don't compare yourself to BW yourself or BW friends, but compare SC2 yourself to SC2 friends/opponents..

I'm sure that If say some "insane" Z player got maxed out in 13 min - they'll probably do that in 10 with all the necessary teching min now and harassing at 6.30 or maybe even a bit earlier due to the new Gas mech.. That's really fast IMO..

Just imagine the possibility to have 2x the units you've had in BW at mid game.. that's really scary

Quote by TheGreenMachine

Disclaimer: I may have made a mistake in SC1 or WC3 mechanics I am no pro.
[/qoute]

I'm no Pro either..

Quote by steve42

Noobs know the enemy, good players know what the enemy knows, great players know what the enemy knows you know. Gosu progamers know what the enemy knows you know they know.

The 255 unit thing should change I mean that is crazy! whats the population max?

This is yet another recycling of an old topic, just sayin'.

Quote by TheGreenMachine

1. Up to 255 unit selection
2. Being Able to Select Multiple Buildings
3. Health Bars
4. Smart Casting
5. Rally point to Mine Minerals
6. Better Unit Pathing
7. Hold fire button cloaked units.

I'm all for the improvements, because if the noobs will do better with the changes, so will the pros. They will pwn the noobs harder.

Furthermore, I am certain Blizzard will introduce them. The only (theoretical) way they are going back to buggy 1998 game is through an optional multiplayer setting.

Quote by TheGreenMachine

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LOL