Starcraft 2 Armory

Just found out the most ridiculous part of the story of Batttle-Hellions being bio I think:

--> Battle-Hellions CAN enter in bunkers now..

Sep 22nd 2012, 11:12:03 Quote by VArsovskiSC

Just found out the most ridiculous part of the story of Batttle-Hellions being bio I think:

--> Battle-Hellions CAN enter in bunkers now..

You don't say. Along with that the Siege Tank has a minor buff to their armor bonus(3+4 vs armor instead of the normal 3+2 vs armor).

Ninja Buff!!!!!!!!

Btw, HSM now cost 125 energy again

That is an odd damage buff(+7 vs armor in Siege mode instead of 5), not sure it was needed. Also not sure what to make of the BH going into bunkers, although just imagine what it looks like to see one fitting into a bunker.

Sep 22nd 2012, 11:30:25 Quote by Destroyer

Sep 22nd 2012, 11:12:03 Quote by VArsovskiSC

Just found out the most ridiculous part of the story of Batttle-Hellions being bio I think:

--> Battle-Hellions CAN enter in bunkers now..

You don't say. Along with that the Siege Tank has a minor buff to their armor bonus(3+4 vs armor instead of the normal 3+2 vs armor).

That's awesome! The new and perfected firebat is now back in all its glory! I wish blizzard would use the battle hellions in a cinematic like they used the firebat in the intro cinematic for BW, like being a hero and fighting off a horde of zerglings, and saving a bunch of citizens escaping. Somebody should do that just for fun. Anyways this is nice. It keeps getting better and better!

They didn't want BH in Bunkers, that was an unforeseen consequence (I wonder how can they miss such a thing). See this thread. They are going to 'fix' it so they can't get in Bunkers.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

They didn't want BH in Bunkers, that was an unforeseen consequence (I wonder how can they miss such a thing). See this thread. They are going to 'fix' it so they can't get in Bunkers.

It's Blizzards running theme for this beta. BC attack to ground buff and Ravens cheaper missiles. Apparently both were bugs. Cue Terrans who say that both are now very viable late game to cry.

@Omega: What? Siegetanks have had that kind of damage upgrade from since the very early days of Starcraft 2 WOL after beta phase.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

You seem to be saying that STs are not the ideal Mech core unit, but you did not say what should be and how mech should play.

I am not suggesting that Siege tanks aren't the core unit. I am saying that people overblow it's position of the end all be all.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

In WoL we still see the Tank making up the core mech strength in army encounters, and in cases where you do not build Tanks you usually do not see factory units past early game. This shows that the Tank is still the core army unit of Mech

Doesn't matter. Why? There's a safer way to play called bio or bio-mech. If that doesn't happen then Factories are used as scouts to be killed off later. The reason Mech was so great in TvP was because it was practically our only choice.
Now with everything being so mobile that "core" mech unit doesn't look very good as you're pulled apart if not outright overrun in all three matchups.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

all the changes differences you mentioned have not changed that. You are not wrong in what you said, but it just means that Tanks are weaker or even harmful if used like in BW.

That's because DK and DB don't like the ST. While fans were able to whine their way into getting some decent changes the Siege Tank by itself has not benefited.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

In HotS I do not see this changing much, although I do wonder if we will see people being able to throw BH into TvP bio.

Whatever gives the Terran an excuse to not suicide their factories.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

As for maps, that is the reason people want to see tank buffs now, but I think it should be more in a drop of Tank supply(and maybe gas) for better coverage. Still this is if Tanks need a buff, and I am not convinced they need a direct.

I think Blizzard wanted more Mech usage against the protoss so I cans see why they're even more hesitant on buffing the Siege Tank. Buffing it would change the other two matchups. Either way I'm a proponent of also changing the way Protoss interacts with Terran mech. It's far too mobile and cost effective with hard counters as icing.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

In closing I would like to say that the new units could very well be of big help to mech play, but neither will be able to take away form what the core unit is.

What good is a siege tank if it's support units suck at their roles? Hellions melted to splash, there was little to help screen Toss and the maps are large enough that you can attack from multiple angles. Or reload to overrun the remnants either way you can't retreat. Thors practically kill production of STs along with being great single target dealers and Vikings are admirable in their AA role but can't do much on the ground because Armories are too busy researching vehicle upgrades. Heck, ghosts are now becoming more common in late game mech compositions so they don't get storm abused or wrecked by archons.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

If you try and work against this you will run into problems(like the WH trying to give Mech a mobile core unit).

That was more like Blizzard wanting to change mech into a different version of bio. If they had not listened to fan outrage then yes. They would of succeeded into changing mech.

Source:b.net
So looks like that was just a bug. I wonder if the tank damage upgrades are as well.
@Destroyer....what?*reads post* oh, I typed +5 when I meant +7 which makes a lot more sense than saying +5 instead of 5.

I think my position is actually not that far off form yours, just little things more than anything. Still this discussion is interesting(well more so than just agreeing, which I could otherwise do) so I will continue.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

Doesn't matter. Why? There's a safer way to play called bio or bio-mech. If that doesn't happen then Factories are used as scouts to be killed off later. The reason Mech was so great in TvP was because it was practically our only choice.
Now with everything being so mobile that "core" mech unit doesn't look very good as you're pulled apart if not outright overrun in all three matchups.

Nor does bio when it is AoE to hell and drops are shut down. Bio is not safer you just are more able to pick your fights. pure bio is only really used TvP, with mech being used about as much or more in the other two match ups. Bio mech is more the core play of Terran, even though it is somewhat immobile (no trying to quickly pull out unless you want to lose your tanks). You just do not have the option in TvP due to Tanks being unable to hold ground thus their immobility is with out benefit.

Although my statement was made to show just that Tanks are the core unit which you have pointed out was unneeded. I just want to point out now that you are over stating bios strength, even in bio mech you have to deal with the weakness of both(fragility of bio and immobility of mech) only to a lesser degree.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

I think Blizzard wanted more Mech usage against the protoss so I cans see why they're even more hesitant on buffing the Siege Tank. Buffing it would change the other two matchups. Either way I'm a proponent of also changing the way Protoss interacts with Terran mech. It's far too mobile and cost effective with hard counters as icing.

I agree. Also to add to this, one interesting change between SC1:BW and SC2 is the way Protoss shields work, namely how they no longer receive full damage from everything. This means an archon or 'lots will get hit for 35 damage instead of 50. Adds a bit of extra tanking on top of all the other changes from SC1 that lessen what Tanks can do vs protoss.

Sep 24th 2012, 04:28:51 Quote by SoulFilcher

What good is a siege tank if it's support units suck at their roles? Hellions melted to splash, there was little to help screen Toss and the maps are large enough that you can attack from multiple angles. Or reload to overrun the remnants either way you can't retreat. Thors practically kill production of STs along with being great single target dealers and Vikings are admirable in their AA role but can't do much on the ground because Armories are too busy researching vehicle upgrades. Heck, ghosts are now becoming more common in late game mech compositions so they don't get storm abused or wrecked by archons.

Focusing on Protoss you are right, although Hellions who not originally meant to be as much a tanking unit as it was meant to be a harassing unit(a role it fill well). BH I think where more to offer vs light melee as well as to be able to take a few more hits. They does the first new role well, but are still killed by AoE. Agree with the Thor save that I am not sure the Thor has a well defined role(has a few roles I guess). Also Thors are seem a bit weak vs Protoss air. I am not sure about your view on air upgrades. When going mech you get your armories faster, and you often go two armories which let you upgrade air faster when you get around to it. I am not sure how delayed the upgrades are when compared to bio since I have not seen a lot of good comparisons(Bio-mech I know is worse since air upgrades seem to be the lowest priority). Banshees are becoming a support unit for mech, but I am doubtful of their usefulness in TvP past early game pushes and pressure. As for Ghosts, I have seen that as well in HotS. I guess it is hard to play TvP with out the Ghost in SC2.

Sep 20th 2012, 08:59:27 Quote by Gemini_19

The mothership core changes are really stupid in this patch. I don't know what they're thinking.

"We see that the MSCore is vulnerable to double attacks. Causing it to go into purify and then being run away from, and then going back in once purify is done. So we made it so it takes even LONGER for you to use purify in the first place and make that double timing even harder to stop!"

Maybe Blizzard should just keep the damn thing tethered to the Nexus by a certain range. At this point people are just abusing the MSC and blizzards idea to help is to nerf the defense time and buff the damage. If anything it's enabled more shenanigans.

Sep 26th 2012, 01:36:10 Quote by Destroyer

Sep 20th 2012, 08:59:27 Quote by Gemini_19

The mothership core changes are really stupid in this patch. I don't know what they're thinking.

"We see that the MSCore is vulnerable to double attacks. Causing it to go into purify and then being run away from, and then going back in once purify is done. So we made it so it takes even LONGER for you to use purify in the first place and make that double timing even harder to stop!"

Maybe Blizzard should just keep the damn thing tethered to the Nexus by a certain range. At this point people are just abusing the MSC and blizzards idea to help is to nerf the defense time and buff the damage. If anything it's enabled more shenanigans.

I agree.....Blizzard changes MSC to a unit because the community doesn't treat it as a new unit if it's attached to the building.......
This is such a stupid reason - -''

P.S. On a serious note, if MSC is attached to the Nexus, opponent can just run away when purifier is on. And come back when purifier is off.....
Maelstorm might be a better idea than purifier

Sep 26th 2012, 01:36:10 Quote by Destroyer

Sep 20th 2012, 08:59:27 Quote by Gemini_19

The mothership core changes are really stupid in this patch. I don't know what they're thinking.

"We see that the MSCore is vulnerable to double attacks. Causing it to go into purify and then being run away from, and then going back in once purify is done. So we made it so it takes even LONGER for you to use purify in the first place and make that double timing even harder to stop!"

Maybe Blizzard should just keep the damn thing tethered to the Nexus by a certain range. At this point people are just abusing the MSC and blizzards idea to help is to nerf the defense time and buff the damage. If anything it's enabled more shenanigans.

Yes, please. I am still not that happy that it became mobile(guessing it had something to do with wanting it to be with armies).

Blizzard seems to also agree that it is not acting like it should either.


Source:b.net

Here's what bothered me the most regarding the Core: the changes (well some of them) didn't seem to address the issues I think they found to be an issue (TBH - there was never written a situation report on the Core - so the following is a personal guess of mine though):

• If the Core indeed died too frequently trying to defend it's base - then why just not buffed it's HP or Armor.. why give the 10 range instead.. ??
• If it was abused for recalling home-made all-ins into the opponent's base - why just not restrict the maximum range of recall, but have that ridiculous movement speed instead.. ??
  

TBH - I don't like how Blizzard decided that way that the Mothership core should have slow movement speed (or any other form of "secondary solution" to the unit itself instead of the spells that it uses that may be done in the future) and higher-level-of-abusage spells instead of the other way round.. In fact - that by itself seems as a "secondary" solution by itself - it's like not analyzing what broken with it and not fixing that, but instead like - let's give some restrictions (which are ridiculous by the nature of it IMO) so it may solve like 70% of the cases, but still be broken in the other 30% overall..

Then it's gonna probably be a - let's give another restriction to the unit again, instead of fixing it's abilities.. --> I mean let's be honest - there can nothing be wrong about the unit that has 200HP and moves as slow as a pre-1.5 Overlord..

If they just buffed the movement speed while not in purify mode from the Core without increasing range of purify - things might've been better already IMO..

The increasement of damage and reduction of the duration of purify was a good idea though - must applaud for it, but in the same time that gave it a bit too much of effectiveness cause it one-shots Lings and Marines - the 2 most common threats, so it would probably be reasonable if the attack speed of purify was nerfed as well in some changes to follow..

However --> I just don't see why would Mothership Core HAVE TO be just another version of the WOL ALPHA QUEEN IMO.. We don't need slow unmovable "powerful" "things", just less abusive spells instead, that's all..

BESIDES --> would feel much more natural if the Core moved that slowly only while in purify mode IMO..

Updated the OP

So the the purifier beam is Nexus based, but the MC still has an attack when not attached. Not sure about it still having an attack, but I like the idea of it having to attach to the Nexus. I will see what the speed does for the unit.

Sep 26th 2012, 01:36:10 Quote by Destroyer

Terran

Widow Mine
The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec.
Auto-cast can now be turned off in both activated and deactivated modes.

I like the ability to turn off the auto-cast, this way you can target your WMs and hit what it best for them to hit. As for the faster activation time, I need think see if this changes how they are used. Although I am not against it as long as it does not cause problems.

As for the rest, just tweaking. Funny how the locusts are back to the range they where.

P.S. also why not just make another thread?

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

Recall has been changed to the following:
Recall is now a simple cast-and-click ability on a player’s Nexus.
Once cast, the mothership core and every friendly unit within a 7-range radius to the core will be recalled to the Nexus.

Yes please, now the Core is meant to be a unit being mixed within the others overall..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

A new ranged weapon called Repulsor Cannon has been added to the mothership core while in its mobile state.
Repulsor Cannon deals 8 damage to ground units with an attack speed of 0.85.
The cost of the mothership core has increased from 50/50 to 100/100.
Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875.

1.875 is more than even I expected.. Holy Moly - that's the speed of an upgraded Overlord or Thor for example.. My wish came true.. Now the Core is a unit.. Praise Blizzard.. Oh w8 -
I delete my previous post now..

I'd probably find it awkward for it being able to shoot all the time though.. It's basically an 2/3 DPS Air Hydralisk now.. B.T.W - there's no info on the range of this though..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

Oracle
Health has increased from 20/80 to 60/100.
Speed has decreased from 3.75 to 3.375.
The duration of Entomb has increased from 30 to 45.

Good change overall.. more HP, movement speed reasonably fast but not ridiculously fast - better..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by DK <img src=

We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations

Don't know about the idea of using phase-shift on the Oracle though.. And if phase-shift is already what I think it is (was more likely) - during the WoL alpha build the ability back the High-Templar had it before they got feedback - I think they better use a stasis-cell type ability instead.. It's the very same ability idea, works the same, but looks cooler IMO..

PLUS - I'd rather start designing that type of a Terran air flier unit instead.. If the Psy-Shield could get casted on enemy units it would be cool and would find an interesting usages IMO, so it's fine ability as it currently is IMO, but w/e - the more the love to Oracle, the better..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

Terran

Widow Mine
The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec.
Auto-cast can now be turned off in both activated and deactivated modes.

Manual detonation F.T.W.. Good change.. Still - as mentioned just above - Blizz better be thinking how to add a new tactical flier unit for Terran IMO..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

Zerg

Swarm Host
Locust attack range has increased from 2 to 3.
Locust damage has been reduced from 14 to 12.

Hmmm - IDK, it's probably a good change considering how started not using it almost at all - people are good at kiting overall so they brought back the range.. Probably not a bad idea though..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by Destroyer

Bug Fixes

Battle hellions can no longer load into Bunkers.
The splash damage from widow mines will no longer hit friendly activated widow mines.
The Stargate Command Card now properly includes a Set Rally Point button.
Swarm hosts now have proper collision while burrowed.

IDK what the 4th one means, but good they fixed Hellions.. Didn't know Mines could blow up each other from the splash though..

Sep 20th 2012, 05:22:55 Quote by DK

We’re currently looking at ways to alter the design of the widow mine so that it feels like core terran unit

GL with that one, kinda don't see the point of what it might be missing or anyhow a mine could actually be a core unit.. But better not being doubtful about it though..
=====================================================


OVERALL: Very good patch.. If nothing else - very pleased how now Blizzard started to treat the Mothership Core as a unit.. YEEEEEEEEEY